S2, E2: Frenkel Topping Group

Filmed in our purpose-built studio, Season 2 of 'Engaged in Conversation' begins with a visit from Richard Fraser, CEO of the Frenkel Topping Group - an independent financial adviser who offers essential services and support to those with life-changing injuries.

From digital and personal transformation during the COVID-19 pandemic to challenges in engagement across an ever-growing business, our very own CEO, Phil Wedgwood discusses the reasons why the Frenkel Topping Group do what they do, and what the future of change looks like. 

Transcript

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00:00:09:09 - 00:00:13:04
Narrator
Welcome to engaged in conversation, the podcast from Engage Solutions Group.

00:00:13:05 - 00:00:30:09
Phil Wedgwood
Richard, thank you for coming to our studio this morning. So great to see you again. And I thought it'd be really useful if you just obviously introduce yourself and talk a bit about your wonderful organization in National Company that you run. And just give us an overview of of what you're doing there at the moment.

00:00:30:11 - 00:00:53:13
Richard Fraser
So my name's Richard Fraser. I'm the CEO of Frankel Topping Group. And we've been around in Manchester for 40 years now. We originated in 1979 as a forensic accountancy practice. So there was a John Frankel who was a top in, and they specialize in providing litigation support for lawyers, embarrasses who we're dealing with large value, personal injury and medical negligence claims.

00:00:53:13 - 00:01:17:16
Richard Fraser
So these are catastrophic injuries. These are very serious spinal injuries, brain injuries. And and that's how the business started. They provided the forensic accountancy support. And then as the business developed, we then got involved on the investment side as an independent financial advisor. And in 1989, we actually did the very first in the United Kingdom, what was called a structured settlement.

00:01:18:01 - 00:01:38:21
Richard Fraser
So if somebody gets the damages that's paid as a lump sum, once you get the lump sum, though, you've got the risk of inflation, investment, risk, longevity. Your damages last as long as you do that, which is a problem for people. What the structure settlement did was to take part of the damages and give the claimant tax free income for the rest of their life.

00:01:39:07 - 00:02:09:04
Richard Fraser
So this was a case of Kathy Kelly. Kathy was a nurse. She was involved in a very serious accident. She was left in a coma and her husband was killed. Kathy's life expectancy in 1984 was 15 years so to 1999, by putting a structured settlement in place, we guaranteed her income for the rest of her life. Kathy actually died at Easter 2019, 20 years after her expected life expectancy, which and if we had the structure, her damages would have run out many, many years ago.

00:02:09:15 - 00:02:30:19
Richard Fraser
But what this did was it gave us a foothold into this whole personal injury and clinical negligence marketplace. What happens to somebody pre settlement, the whole litigation process, because in the United Kingdom, you're the what the law says is you will be put back in the same financial position you would have been booked for the accident. So we do not have these huge pecuniary losses here like they do in America.

00:02:31:02 - 00:02:56:21
Richard Fraser
You know, you hear about somebody going to McDonald's, they get scalding coffee on the knee and they get $30 million. It doesn't happen here. You just put back in the same financial position. So we've been involved for the last 30 years building our brand is Finkel topping by providing litigation support pre settlement. So we do loss of earnings reports pension loss reports and we do a report at the settlement to say, well, what should be tax free income and what should be a lump sum?

00:02:57:13 - 00:03:22:03
Richard Fraser
The whole point of what we're trying to do is to become the trusted advisor. So when the client gets their damages and we've instructed to look after the assets and we now have circa £1.2 billion that we look after, our clients manage on a very conservative basis. We have a 99% retention ratio of our clients, which we're very, very proud of because having got them is we just don't want to lose them.

00:03:22:03 - 00:03:27:16
Richard Fraser
So, you know, our commitment to the service and looking after them is is paramount to what we do.

00:03:28:01 - 00:03:50:22
Phil Wedgwood
Do you think that the transition through COVID has been easier to stay that because it's been a very traditional face to face environment, hasn't it? People wearing suits and ties and that whole, especially in your financially regulated slightly different to the maybe the sorry regulation in legal how do you how have you seen that changing and what do you think is here to stay from that journey?

00:03:50:22 - 00:04:08:21
Richard Fraser
Well, you have to look at me, right? I left school 1842 years. I've been institutionalized. I got up in the morning, put a shirt, tie, suit on, went to work 8:00 in the morning. And I firmly believe the CEO, I had to be seen to be the first one in the morning, last one to leave in the evening.

00:04:09:07 - 00:04:28:20
Richard Fraser
And sat in traffic for 2 hours in the morning, 2 hours of an evening COVID hit. And I honestly feel I struggle and actually, from a personal perspective, from the best thing that's ever happened to me, because I understood now you don't have to be in the office. You don't have to be there all the time. You know, I'm just I want to suit properly for many months now.

00:04:28:20 - 00:04:51:09
Richard Fraser
I mean, when I go to sit in, I'm presenting. I do. And sometimes I've got a meeting office. I will. But now we're all dressed like this, far more relaxed. We have flexible work in the office. We use. We're using technology far more. But I think there's a long, long way for us to go. I think both of the lawyers and I know one of the SARS directors to try and get them to become too digitalized and to use technology.

00:04:51:09 - 00:05:13:08
Richard Fraser
And we're exactly the same. You know, we are outdated with the way that we interact with our clients, the way we interact with our staff. And it's one of the reasons why we're engaging with Engage solutions, because we fundamentally believe that we have to get better at how we get our message and communicate out both to our staff, our stakeholders and stuff, but also our clients as well.

00:05:14:05 - 00:05:32:16
Phil Wedgwood
And that's a cultural transformation almost, isn't it? If you've got people that have been offering financial advice to clients for 20 years in their suits and ties, all of a sudden people comfortable giving finance regulator, financial advice now in jeans and t shirts. I mean, is it kind of how far does it go?

00:05:32:16 - 00:05:48:24
Richard Fraser
Well, it's interesting, actually, because occasionally going back when I used to feel and I don't fit in and I did, I would get a lawyer sometimes saying to me, look, don't turn up in your suit today because of the fact it would be far better if you just turn up in jeans and a t shirt. Yeah. So I suppose you just take it off.

00:05:49:00 - 00:06:06:02
Richard Fraser
It's just each time you just look at the individual you're dealing with and talk to a lawyer, and if they feel it's appropriate for you to go suits and boot it fine. But a lot of times most people, they don't. They get frightened. They get intimidated by the mountain, open the stage. So they'd rather see somebody dressed like this.

00:06:06:02 - 00:06:10:00
Richard Fraser
They feel far more comfortable and open when you speak to people like that.

00:06:10:00 - 00:06:16:17
Phil Wedgwood
Yeah. Talk me through then some of the headline challenges, some of the engagement challenges, I guess, that you've that you've faced.

00:06:16:20 - 00:06:39:17
Richard Fraser
Yeah, I think the big, big thing now for us is integration is, you know, we've got 12 brands within the group now in many, many different services. So how to integrate that? But more and more, how do we communicate? How do we get our message out to 300 odd staff and to have the the values that we fundamentally our culture, how do we get that out to all our clients?

00:06:39:21 - 00:07:00:06
Richard Fraser
Culturally, everybody we engage with had to fit into the way we saw the world. And if they didn't, then we didn't continue with them. Because I don't want that. I want people who are engaged, understand ultimately who were looking after, which is some of the most vulnerable people in our society. They've had a life changing, catastrophic event, either to themselves husband, wife, children.

00:07:00:18 - 00:07:28:05
Richard Fraser
And having to deal with somebody who's disabled is hard enough without or then goes round it with the litigation process and then ultimately having half million, 1 to £3 million to invest, which is then got to last for the lifetime to provide the care requirements, the physiotherapy, the occupational therapy, the equipment they need for the rest of their life on an uncertain life expectation so that people have to bind to who and what we are and who ultimately we look after.

00:07:28:14 - 00:07:39:16
Phil Wedgwood
And to try and achieve that sense of joined up purpose and being, I suppose culturally you've got some values haven't yet. You want to just share how you came about those values and how you bring them to life.

00:07:40:00 - 00:08:01:00
Richard Fraser
Yeah, I mean it's an evolving process as you go through and we've started on another journey which is because B Corp, as you've heard of, because but we start like this off show, you know exactly what our values are, which is, you know, to respect each other, to make sure you deal with each other. You commitment your loyalty.

00:08:02:00 - 00:08:18:10
Richard Fraser
You know, if you say you're going to do something, you do it. You know, you principles. I'm a man of my word, a man of principles. And I always have been. I've always said to people I will treat with the utmost respect. You never lie to me because the moment you lie to you have a problem and even if you make a mistake, be honest about it.

00:08:18:10 - 00:08:35:19
Richard Fraser
Because if you've made a mistake, we can deal with it. We can sort it out. The moment you start to try to cover that mistake up and start to lie, that's when problems start. And it's just about that respect as human beings to you, to each other, to our staff, to our clients and the solicitors we deal with.

00:08:35:19 - 00:08:59:13
Phil Wedgwood
That's great. And when you've got the growth that you've had 12 different businesses spread across the UK, how do you obviously a lot of these businesses have been trading for many years, haven't they? They're quite established in their brands. And you've kept most of those brands in play haven't? Yeah, that's certainly for now. I don't know what your strategy is moving forward, but it comes with that lots of different cultures, I suppose, lots of different challenges.

00:08:59:13 - 00:09:02:00
Phil Wedgwood
How have you found integrating that so quickly?

00:09:02:11 - 00:09:19:00
Richard Fraser
Well, it is it's a challenge. It's an ongoing challenge. You know, that is that is part of what we're trying to do now as we move forward. And, you know, part of that solution is, is engaging with the engage and helping that communication. And are you right? There are different cultures within the and the businesses have gone for a long time.

00:09:19:00 - 00:09:45:24
Richard Fraser
You know, we so we have we have a regular newsletter that goes out to United, which on a monthly basis which tells everybody in the group what's happening. We celebrate promotions, we celebrate wins exams, successes throughout the whole group. And we also have an annual conference when we bring everybody together to share our values. Integration needs to be ongoing because everybody needs to feel the part of the group as a whole.

00:09:45:24 - 00:09:50:07
Richard Fraser
And we have a lot of plans for what we want to get to in the future.

00:09:50:19 - 00:10:06:21
Phil Wedgwood
I suspect a hard world in which you operate really, because if you look at the individuals, your clients, so to speak, you know, it is a there's a there's a real story behind each one of those which is quite powerful and emotional, isn't it? I mean, is that hard for your team to to be exposed to that all the time?

00:10:07:17 - 00:10:29:23
Richard Fraser
Yes. My the reason I'm here today is my brother broke his back when he was 18, 1988, fell out of first year at Newcastle University, fell out of window and broke his back. So he's been in a wheelchair now for 30 over 30 years now to this day. And my mum cannot look at a photograph of our drew pre accident dynasty or years later what might have been.

00:10:31:04 - 00:10:54:20
Richard Fraser
He had a very successful career. He joined the Inland Revenue graduate Fast Track Scheme. It was in fact the senior Inland Revenue adviser to Gordon Brown's budget of 99 in 2000 but had to retire at 48 because he started to get really bad arthritis in his shoulders and in his shoulders went and that's his independence gone. So that's just one of the effects of using your shoulders, your legs for 20, 20 odd years.

00:10:55:07 - 00:11:26:16
Richard Fraser
So I've seen what happens to a family when you get that, because effectively and I became the parent because my mum and I just couldn't cope. I was 28 at the time and and they just crumbled. So I, I stepped in and became parent instead of some sort of an effect on me. And in fact, to this day my wife says to me, the reason I don't get upset about anything is because I suppressed a lot of emotion at the time of the accident and a lot of our, particularly some of our fans have got substance, has got a cerebral palsy brother.

00:11:26:22 - 00:11:39:23
Richard Fraser
So a lot of our clients at Claire's got an autistic child. So a lot of have gone through and understand what the emotion and the trauma around a family member close to all of that has something catastrophic happens to them.

00:11:40:05 - 00:11:46:04
Phil Wedgwood
Wow. So in a way so sense of cohesion, isn't it? It's a sense of bringing us together with the shared experience.

00:11:46:11 - 00:12:02:16
Richard Fraser
That's right. And one thing I would say to all all our stuff is never ignore the individual. Even if they don't know who you are. Just touch the hand of drama, say hi, you know, pizza sandwich or whatever. Really nice to meet you. And I'm here to look after your money, but I'm going to speak to your mum dad about it.

00:12:02:19 - 00:12:04:21
Richard Fraser
You've got to acknowledge that individual.

00:12:05:00 - 00:12:18:00
Phil Wedgwood
One of the things that I suppose is, is do you do you foster a sense of community within your clients because they're all having that shared experience and everyone is different, hugely different. But is there anything that connects them together? Is there an opportunity to?

00:12:18:03 - 00:12:39:22
Richard Fraser
I think there's a huge opportunity to do that and, you know, we so our mantra in the business is life after life changing events. But I think there is to share to share what's happened. So to give you an example, and one of our clients, Ali, and was 17, was misdiagnosed with meningitis at 15 months old. So she's a quadruple, quadruple amputee.

00:12:39:22 - 00:13:09:12
Richard Fraser
I'm the elbows in the knees. And Ellie won a silver medal at the Beijing Olympics in the Paralympics last September. She's the most inspirational young woman I have ever met in my life. But she she just gets on with it. I got to see. Unfortunately, at the moment, I've got a season ticket at Old Trafford, which is not the greatest place to be, but they had a starter fund, so I took them to the game and I think, you know, they're pretty stoked to share stories like that into the wider community.

00:13:09:12 - 00:13:17:17
Richard Fraser
Absolutely. And it's one of the ah aspirations of part of what we're doing now, this whole engagement with our clients create that community. Yeah.

00:13:17:18 - 00:13:45:23
Phil Wedgwood
So yeah, I mean I can I talk a lot about the three C's of engagement, the audiences that matter most to a business and they are your colleagues, your customers and that wider sense of community getting communities engaged and your brand, I think you're a really good example why there's so much potential on that last see that community, that sense of being, that sense of togetherness and also providing a safe space for those individuals to to interact and engage together because that's often missing with mainstream social media.

00:13:45:23 - 00:13:48:24
Phil Wedgwood
It's very hard to create those safe, private spaces.

00:13:48:24 - 00:14:08:06
Richard Fraser
So I totally agree with you, you know, on the three CS. And then I think we would very much like to create that community within both, you know, internally and externally as well. What we really need is people engaging. So that's coming from everybody in the business of things that are happening. You know, one of the things we do, for example, within the group is, is have you heard of Mercy?

00:14:08:06 - 00:14:38:14
Richard Fraser
Call the nurse. So she. Yes, she was a very famous black nurse and helped to nurse in the UK and there's a there's a statue down in in Richmond, but there's a garden in Leeds and we help to maintain the Mary Seacole garden, you know, and our staff are doing that constantly. There's up in Salford here, there's the brain and spinal injuries, charity basic, which you know, we, we get heavily involved in this opportunity to volunteer that help them you know that and I think that can be driven by our staff, you know, getting them engaged around.

00:14:38:15 - 00:14:47:13
Richard Fraser
They're all coming from the top down. It comes more from the bottom up. And so it becomes everybody's communication tool, not just ours in management.

00:14:47:21 - 00:14:57:10
Phil Wedgwood
Yeah. So if you have a kind of visionary magic wand in, say, five or ten years time, where do you see Franco topping being? What's the vision for the vision?

00:14:57:14 - 00:15:16:23
Richard Fraser
So what I'd like to see is, is I think technology in the use of we are so far behind, I think that we need to have you know, what last two years has taught me is the digitalization of business, the the communication, how we engage with both, like you said, internal staff, our clients and the community is to create a group.

00:15:16:23 - 00:15:52:20
Richard Fraser
So we are seen as and it doesn't matter whether you've got a person or not, if you've got any thing that you need when it comes to a disability, we're the first port of call. You know, our brand is known throughout the UK that we have a platform that whether it's a wheelchair, whether it's a hoist, whether it's physiotherapy, occupational therapy, whether it's an adapted car, whether it's getting your tax return, doing a holiday, whatever you need our platform as a place to go to find that information, whether it's from a charitable and whether it's from litigation.

00:15:52:20 - 00:16:03:03
Richard Fraser
And it's irrelevant that you can come and find that out. And that brand is known throughout the whole of UK as the place to go to find that information. So that's the vision.

00:16:03:15 - 00:16:18:17
Phil Wedgwood
I love that and it's such an authentic and purposeful vision to have, isn't it, for society and in general. And I think that's fantastic. And on that note, is this a UK only thing or could you see this extending into other territories?

00:16:19:17 - 00:16:48:12
Richard Fraser
And I'm I mean, there are some territories around the world that have a similar system, I mean India and Australia in particular. But I think there's so much to be done in the UK for us. Yeah, I think we just focus on, on getting that, you know, bringing all that together and, and you know, just trying to work more towards this, particularly between social care and just for example, I mean, I know Andy Burnham here in Manchester is going to one of his election mantras was to try and get that joined up approach from because you've been in hospital, you've been a major trauma center.

00:16:48:18 - 00:17:10:04
Richard Fraser
I'll give you an example right. So one of the things we do because we do work in the NHS, our charitable foundation gives each of the major trauma advisers a debit card with £3,000 on it because only a 25 to 30% of the people who go into the major trauma center will ever have a claim. 60%, 65%, don't.

00:17:10:04 - 00:17:32:22
Richard Fraser
You wouldn't believe people haven't got to buy pajamas to go pajamas, go home. And, you know, the wife has decided to put food on the table for children or do I get a taxi to see my husband? Whose line of it is quite unbelievable. I mean, only the other week we had an older gentleman who had a very severe leg injury, which leaves a lot of blood stabilizing quite quickly.

00:17:32:22 - 00:17:51:20
Richard Fraser
But his injuries to his legs meant he couldn't climb stairs. The family couldn't afford to buy a single bed for a room downstairs so he could go home. So because the adviser had charitable debit card, they bought him a bed, so it got him home to something but free to put bed for the, you know, him to go home.

00:17:52:05 - 00:18:04:16
Richard Fraser
So I think there's so much to do around this whole engagement between what happens to somebody. You then extend into the elderly and how the elderly looked after between social care. And there is so much to do in this country.

00:18:05:13 - 00:18:31:22
Phil Wedgwood
Yeah, yeah. I love what you're saying and I totally agree. And I think I'm involved in another organization Go Vocal. And that's very much about strengthening the voice of business leaders in the business community in the UK. And I think that there's a lot of talk around that transitioning into government and that interplay between these the business world and how we can impact the wider community and the wider sense of, you know, what we can do, how we can impact the greater good, if you like.

00:18:31:22 - 00:18:50:19
Richard Fraser
Yeah. I mean, I went to college, go to night, I went to one of the world business forums down in London. I can't remember the chapter, but was a Harvard professor talking and he actually said he said the only way change will come, whether that is through socio socially making change or environmental change, is going to come from non-for-profit organizations.

00:18:50:19 - 00:19:12:02
Richard Fraser
It will not come from governments, it will come from business and business leaders who understand it coming together and don't realize it's not all about profitability of the business and it's about what happens. And on that note, what's been really interesting in last two years for me is prior to COVID, it was the old Jerry Maguire film. When I went to speak to as a Show Me the money.

00:19:12:03 - 00:19:37:01
Richard Fraser
That's all they were interested in, you know, what's your balance sheet, what's your cash position? What shape it what's your earnings per share does changed quite dramatically in the last two years. And we ask more about how our culture, our values, our clients and so much so that I did and coined the phrase during which seemed to go down quite well, that we are actually caring capitalists, that we are capitalist and we're that to make money for ourselves.

00:19:37:10 - 00:19:42:18
Richard Fraser
But we care about what we do. We have a reason. Our reason why for what we do is very, very strong.

00:19:43:10 - 00:19:57:03
Phil Wedgwood
Yeah, and that's really obvious listening to you today and looking at what your business is doing. So really honestly, congratulations for that. And I think if we all the other business leaders out there could do that, that would be amazing, wouldn't it? Because it really would make a huge difference.

00:19:57:06 - 00:19:58:11
Richard Fraser
Maybe we could start a movement.

00:19:58:14 - 00:20:07:11
Phil Wedgwood
Maybe we should. Yeah. Yes. And I think on that note, Richard, it's been a pleasure chatting with you. Really appreciate you sharing your insights and your experiences today. Thank you very.

00:20:07:11 - 00:20:46:16
Richard Fraser
Much. Enjoyed it. Thank you.