S2:E5 Part 1 - Juergen Maier and Advita Patel

In this episode of Season 2's #EngagedInConversation, we talk with Advita Patel and Jürgen Maier.Advita Patel is the director of CommsRebel, co-founder of A Leader Like Me, a membership for underrepresented women looking to progress in their careers, and a co-host for an award-winning podcast, CalmEdgedRebels.Jürgen Maier is Chair of the Digital Catapult, Vice-Chair of the Northern Powerhouse Partnership and the co-founder of vocL – a platform empowering responsible business voices powered by Engage Solutions technology. Juergen is also the former CEO of Siemens UK, with 33 years of experience within the Siemens organisation.In part one of the conversation, we explore the true meaning of diversity and representation and what businesses can do to build truly inclusive cultures.Don't miss part two of this conversation in our next video.Connect with Advita and Jürgen below -
Advita Patel - CommsRebel: https://bit.ly/3TwkkrO
A Leader Like Me: https://bit.ly/3DdkShd
CalmEdgedRebels podcast: https://bit.ly/3TzGeKPJürgen Maier - vocL: https://bit.ly/3sdMlsN
Download the vocL apple app: https://apple.co/3DdrVq4
Android vocL app: https://bit.ly/3sbhM6REngage Solutions Group: https://bit.ly/3yXcL5H

Transcript

0:05

Hi and welcome to another episode of Engaged in Conversation Today, we're trying something slightly new. We have a slightly different format. I'm joined by two fantastic guests, we’ll introduce them in a minute. But also we're in a different location. We've moved away from our studio green screen to something a little bit more relaxed than real world. So let's see how that works today. So I'd just like to introduce Advita Patel and Juergen Maier. Would you like to say hello and introduce yourself. Hello. I'm really, really pleased to be here today and listen to the conversations we're going to have with each other, because I've got some great topics to discuss, haven't we? Today we have. So I own a consultancy called Comms Rebel. It is an employee experience & internal communications consultancy and also the co-founder of a Leader Like Me, which is an organization to help support underrepresented women of color to progress in their careers. But we also work with organizations to help them cultivate more inclusive cultures. Fantastic. Well, also brilliant to be here and join this conversation. I'm Juergen Maier and I'm the co-founder of an organization called vocL, which is a platform for encouraging socially responsible business voices. And we're particularly focused on next generation leaders and making sure that next generation leaders can be more responsible in terms of their business, being responsible to society, and also being more vocL and communicating that which is which is your expertise and your expertise Advita. And Phil, so looking forward to the conversation. Yeah. And I think that's an interesting way just to finish the intro. So we've effectively, I think got three experts in communications here today coming from very different backgrounds and areas of expertise and hopefully we can have a fruitful conversation. I think particularly zoning in on something that is very topical and very interesting for many boardrooms through the land, which is about how we can create inclusive cultures within business and make those flourish. So should we start talking about that big question? Yeah. Isn't that a big challenge? It's a big challenge. And Priya and I, Priya, who's my co-founder of a leader like me, we recognized and realized when we worked with clients and organizations that there's just a lot of confusion and conflict, I would say, around inclusive cultures and what does that actually mean? And often it gets interchangeable with diversity and people mix up diversity and inclusion and don't really understand the differences. And, the way I look at inclusion will be really interesting to hear your points of view. It's all about making sure that people can thrive in the work that they're doing and bring their best self to be able to do that and whatever that best self looks like. So this whole discussion right now around bring yourself to work, you know, be authentic and when you're authentic enough to work. But my question always to leaders is, is it safe enough to do that? You know, if you're asking people to bring the whole of are you making sure that the environment is set out for them to thrive in that space? So let's talk about what do we need to create right now for them to bring who they need to be to do the work that they have to do? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that's really fascinating me but building on what you're saying is, is, you know, as we all this company started the journey of diversity and inclusion. I think initially it was very much about what do the teams that were assembling look like? And the focus was on we need mixes of gender, we need people of different ethnic backgrounds and and look, that's been great. I think we've made progress in many companies in that regard, haven't we? But what we've now realized is, is well, actually it's about the diversity of thought that goes along with that, you know, so actually, you know, you can, you can present a very diverse group of people, but they've all had very similar experiences. And indeed, you know, I don't want to get too political here, but but you know, if you take our current cabinet that has just been assembled by our prime minister, it looks massively diverse, doesn't it? It's probably the most diverse. This cabinet. We have a which is sort of like hurrah! this is fantastic, you know, proud to have a country with such a diverse leadership, but actually when you then look at the backgrounds, a lot of them are incredibly similar. And I sort of wonder whether that is why we're currently seeing you know, a bit of u turning and and a bit of not listening to to our country because there isn't really that proper proper diversity. Diversity of thought is really interesting because it is a debatable topic. And in my experience, a lot of folks have hidden behind diversity of thought to excuse the fact that it has representation on their boards and senior management. There's definitely progress. I think you're right. Yeah. Again, I think progress has been made in some organizations, but we're still finding challenge at senior boards and CEO boards and and even non-executive director positions. We're still not seeing that representation. And when questioned about why we're not seeing that representation, diversity of thought is brought up quite frequently to say, well, we've got diversity of thought or cognitive diversity, as some folks say, which is incredibly important to your point. But I also feel like there are some organizations that may hide behind that as an excuse why they don't have that representation. And I always say, why do you believe that's in ethnic minorities or certain genders or whatever? Don't have the experience. And if you don't feel that they've got the experience, what are you doing about it? Yeah, because we don't all have the same opportunities. And I think there's also this fear around bringing different thought to the table. So that's really, you know, so this is a really interesting point, isn't it? So you've got, you know, on the one hand, you could assemble a team that looks massively diverse. It's got no diversity of thought. On the other hand, you could have organizations that are hiding behind having that, you know, that sort of visible diversity and saying, well, actually, you know, we're all we're all white men, but we have, you know, different different diversity of thought. So, I mean, you know, we're now getting into really quite a quite a difficult you know, if you take me and Phil, you know, I mean, we're both middle aged-ish, phil’s a bit younger than me so sorry if i’ve just insulted you. You're young and definitely middle aged and. That but you know I mean so let's say we’re middle aged white men you know but you know, I, I belong to the gay community, which, you know, I mean, the audience listening here wouldn't immediately wouldn't immediately see, you know, we’ll have very different educational backgrounds, you know, we’ll have had, you know, different different family experiences because, you know, growing up as a gay man is is is is different to a family man with your three children, etc., etc., you know. So, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's fascinating. So how would you rate this? Fascinating, you know. Yeah. And also, I mean, I've seen the idea of a shadow board. Is that something you ever did in Siemens where you could almost have the main board with all of these challenges, but then also a shadow board often the younger generation and what I love with what you're doing vocL is you're very much trying to foster authenticity and clearer comms out of that business leadership level, but also now with a lens to fostering that through the next generation. And that's really fascinating that you're doing that so successfully. Yeah, it is. I mean, the answer to your question is, is I did do it at Siemens, but it wasn't sort of a formal shadow board. That wasn't sort of the trendy thing then, but we did assemble a group of our top talent, which was incredibly representative of different backgrounds, and they became our sounding board really on specific initiatives that we were rolling out, particularly, for example, you know, how do we create a more digital, a more agile organization? You know, I mean, look, you know, you need next generation people to advise you on that. You know, we weren't exactly the expert. So and I found that I found that massively important and interesting and at vocL, what's interesting is, is we've started with a bit of a more traditional sort of, you know, the voices of experience. And we're now creating a cohort of our future voices. And actually it's beginning already to be quite interesting. You know, the different, you know the dynamic and the, you know, and the difference of opinion on certain topics. And I think that's what's going to make vocL, you know, very exciting and spark a little bit, actually. Yeah, I agree. And I think when we first met was at you're amazing conference i mean i don’t think anyone could believe that was the first conference that you’d done. It was wasn’t it. Wasn’t it and I know i don’t think i couldnt believe it as well. And. I think, you know, that's what was really enlightening and intriguing was the way you did that was was impressive. But also the audience and the speakers that you had were very, very representative weren’t they, to a point that it really made you think of the average event or the average company scenario wasn't as inclusive as the event you laid on. And I think you really showcased how you should or could or can do that. Yeah, no, thank you. And I think it's about being intentional and that the whole purpose of my event is intention. And I think we live in such a busy world with so much destruction, lots of things going on that it's easier to make decisions just quickly without much thought because we just and there are things that are happening and I completely appreciate that some people don't have the luxury of time sometimes, but if you're going to do something, then do it properly and put intention behind it. And when I decided that I wanted to do inner rebel conference, it was it was it was actually born out of frustration for going along to these events where it was the same echo chamber information bubble, people saying the same thing over and over again, the same voices on stage. There was no cognitive diversity. You know, you may have represent you. So you kind of I'm saying this very controversial, I suppose, in a way that is tick-boxy you know, so people will look at a panel and go, okay, I need a black woman, I need a gay man, I need a need to have like people on there because the representation is, you know, we can't exclude. And that's a mind process rather than thinking, actually, what do I need to get out of this conversation and how do I find those people who can represent properly? And people say to me, Oh, there just isn't a talent out there in this space that are diverse. And I'm like, nonsense, which is why i created the underrepresented speaker list. And the underrepresented speaker list is for anybody who believes that they're not represented. So I don't give people a label. I don't say you have to be a person of color to be on this list or you have to be a woman to be on this list. I'm like, If you feel you are not represented in any way, get your name on that list so we can get your thoughts out there. It's a great idea. And I saw a LinkedIn Post where it was trending because someone was organizing an event and I think it was nine speakers. I think eight of them were white male and there was one lady and it was someone commented, Oh, this isn't very diverse or inclusive. And then it went viral because of all the comments, rightly so. And you kindly, you were very positive and said, Look, if you need some help, check this list out. And it was your list of yeah. Of underrepresented audiences and people. And I thought that was really nice because. But isn't it shocking that, that, that that's still happening in 2022 that a big company would host an event without even thinking that's the thing. Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. Yeah. And I'm wondering actually, you know, you've just made me think, you know, all events, we always end up with these really boring biographies of everybody do you know? And it's not like it's the CV, you know, it has been this has been that. And I'm wondering whether you would just change that. And that should be about your diverse experience, you know, and and you bring out that point, you know, because take that panel. I think in terms of a look, it looks completely wrong to have a panel of eight white men and one woman. However, you know, it may well be a bit more, you know. Yeah. I mean, you know, three of those could have been gay men. You know, they could have had incredibly different backgrounds, you know, and if you and if you present that and say, look, you know, here is our diversity of thought, you know, then then, you know, maybe it's okay as long as it doesn't become an excuse. And it's about representation, right? So I always say to folks, who are your audience, who are the publics that you're working towards and what are you trying to say to them? And are you representing those publics? Yeah, and that's about fair representation. So if you're talking to a you know, we live we're privileged to live in our country, which is very, very diverse. And, you know, and there's lots of different characters and it's brilliant in terms of what we have access to. And if your company is they're your customers, which often they are, then are you representing those customers in the conversations that you're having about those customers? And if you're not, then you may need to reflect and think, how are you bringing those conversations out with different voices and thoughts? Which is why the representative list works. Because to your point, again, nobody wants to hear a list of your CV. I always say to folks, Go on LinkedIn if I want to know my history and my experience go on LinkedIn and we asked all our speakers Inner Rebel to have a sentence about what does unleashing your inner rebel mean to you? And that's I mean, we didn't bore people with a CV on stage. And if people want to know more, we gave everyone a booklet with a description about what each person does. And you have to think differently if you want to make change happen. Fantastic. I'm going to go and change. I'm going to change my biography I think immediately after this is June the 14th. So we're doing it again in 2023. So a little plug there. Oh. Yeah, no. And I think. What fascinates and drives me and our business at Engage is using technology to give people a voice, because ultimately, if you're underrepresented, you don't feel included in something, if you have a voice. And that's where social media has worked well, hasn't it? Because ultimately everybody can go on Facebook and say something on Twitter. And in a way, it has given a level playing field for people to be heard. And I think the challenge is how do we kind of try and echo that sentiment in business environments? So to level up that playing field a bit more, rather than that classic sort of top down corporate cultures that often still exist even now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really interesting. Yeah, it's something I'd be interested in exploring. Just, just quickly with, with, with, with both of you is, you know, I'm fascinated by the fact that business is staying very quiet about some very significant events. You know, we're we're definitely seeing, you know, not exactly enthusiasm towards our journey towards a sustainable Britain and a sustainable world. You know, and indeed, you know, we're getting silly announcements like we're going to stop fracking again, you know, and all this sort of, you know, where is the business voice in that? You know? And then, you know, there was just this little mini budget, you know, where I mean, it was just optically all wrong, you know, sort of, you know, sort of give a bit more money to the rich, you know. And whilst we've got a cost of living crisis going on and I just sort of think, you know, look responsible business and in the end of that, 45% tax rate, you know, has been reintroduced, which I personally think is the right thing to do. But, you know, where where was business shouting about that? And so, you know, so for both of you, at least, you know what? Why is that? And what is it about companies that are better at communicating this sort of thing now in the public domain? I think it's confidence. I think a lot of the time I think a lot of leaders may lack thought in that space because they are fearful of being called out for having an opinion. And as great as social media is and how it's opened up, the avenues for lots of people, including marginalized, underrepresented folk, it's also a very toxic place at times. And I think a lot of leaders and there's no context either on some of these platforms. So I think a lot of leaders are fearful potentially of calling out or speaking up about certain things. And they may have an opinion that's not as thought through as they would like. And they may not have the advisors around them to give them that confidence or courage to speak up as well. And the ones you know, the folks who do speak up and do appear on Sky and BBC in Question Time. The difference I see with them is that they've got an incredibly supportive communications team around them. Right, who will allow them to explore their thoughts and will give them the support they need to be able to do this and are not probably too scared about what that leader is going to say and can manage that crisis. So that reputation and great media training and that kind of support can help boost that courage. But I do think that a lot of leaders are waiting for direction from places like CBI, maybe the IOD, the Institute of Directors as well, don't know what to say. And if they do have and I'm 100% convinced they all have a view and an opinion but are scared about if they do go out there and say this, what people can say about them. Yeah. And also, you know, I mean, I mean CBI by the way, I've been having a chat with CBI in the background on this and saying, you know, why haven't you been, you know, vocL more vocL about this? And of course, CBI always has a, you know, a bit of a tightrope to tread, don't they? You know, you you know, you need to continue good, good, respectful relationships with government, you know, at the same time, you want to be able to call out, you know, where you don't agree or where you think, you know, these policies will have a negative impact, particularly on society. But anyway, the CBI, you know, took quite a positive view of of of the budget. And then I guess what that means is that a lot of businesspeople well, if that's what the CBI thinks, then I better not. Yeah. You know, then you know, but I mean, we're all grown ups, you know. I mean, why can't you just say, well, actually, you know, I'm a business leader and, you know, I see it a little bit different. You know, why why are people. I think we’ve just lost a skill of productive disagreement, Juergen. I think it's either we're right or wrong and there is debate and arguments all the time. Culturally we just yeah a thing now in societies and that generally not just in business. Yeah you know we just we're unable to have powerful conversations without wanting to win and I think this tolerance is not as great as it used to be. I think there's lots of misinformation that's been spread. So people are conflicted with what they're reading. I think there's a lot of tension in a lot of the conversations has been since Brexit, you know, a lot of disconnect with your own peers. And, you know, Brexit was 50/50 ultimately, and that was portrayed in organizations. And I saw conflict in organizations where people had voted either way, you know, between themselves and they just can't have powerful conversations with productive disagreements and come to an outcome that's useful and a learning experience. I think we all enter conversations to want to win, and that puts a fear in people like you. You know, what is CBI is at this then should I be conflicted against them? Because to your point, you need to build and maintain those relationships with those voices out there, especially when you're lobbying the government for various things and you're doing you know, you don't want to be seen as what if I don't get invited in that space? And it all goes back down again to belonging? And if I don't belong in the space, you know, will I be excluded from the conversations? Will my business not thrive? Will I not attract the talent that I want? So I need to kind of tow the line here a little bit, which is why you need that community and confidence of people around you and the work that you're doing at vocL, empowering those individuals of the voices who are coming in, who are who are going to be future leaders and CEOs of organizations and giving them the skills and the confidence and the support from now. So when they get to that point, they can say, actually, I can go and speak on Question Time or BBC News or Sky News and do a statement around this, because I believe in this and this is why I believe in it. But we just don't have that right now. Sadly. It's having more authenticity, authenticity and voices in the office scenarios. If you have that, then you you're in a better place. You know, how long do you think it'll be or will we get there? Whereas, you know, a platform like vocL or any of the other engagement platforms that you've you've created for customers and and for, you know, NGOs and other organizations. At what point will some of those platforms become the place where people, you know, engage in in conversation? And I loved your your term. You used productive disagreements of views that I was very good for to disagree. But, you know, at what point will you know so will it be on a vocL or another engage as opposed to on Sky News or whatever? I mean, I think it would be fantastic if it could, but are we going to get there, do you think? I think we could. And I think there's there's appetite in people like yourself that feel like we need to create that. And we we've even seen that, I suppose, with Trump, haven't we? Because he was excluded from mainstream social media and now he's built his own because he firmly believes he needs to have a voice. And there's that whole debate within mainstream as well. But is there not an echo chamber at risk there? Because I mean, I've not been on that on Trump's platform, by the way, when he first talked about it, he said he was going to call it vocL. And I thought, oh, my, yeah, we spend all your time branding. We’re going to have to change it! But you know, I've not been on it, but I can imagine, you know, it is a pretty, you know, right wing, you know, look, I mean, people with their, you know, views that I will productively disagree with, but, you know, valid views that they heard there. But but you want a platform that that holds all the views. You know, we don't want five platforms where everybody's got their own echo chamber. I mean, that's pretty useless, isn't it? But that's the thing with social media. They want it because the algorithms drive the echo chamber. And that's why I think a lot of people believe what they believe. And that's what I find when I'm having conversations with individuals and I say, Where did you get that insight from how you where’ve you formed that opinion from, oh on Twitter? Like, let's look at your follower list. Who are you following? Because that's what social media loves to love the algorithms and they want to keep you on there for as long as they possibly can so they find the people who agree with your viewpoints because they look at your search history and you follow them. And this is the basics that a lot of people don't know. And you have to really explain that to them and go, you do realize that you are only seeing things that they want you to see because the algorithms encourage you to follow the people who've got the same thing as you. Because if there was too much of disengagement and only time you get that disengagement or predicted disagreements is when something's gone viral and oh, what’s this? And you go, that's what fighting and all that in a debate. But social media, let's be honest, is a business as much as it's helped people have voices, it's a business and it's those platforms and a lot of money from keeping people on their platforms. And they will do everything they can in the power and there's all sorts. And then we can go into another podcast about the whole Cambridge analytical stuff that went on and all that jazz. But I think people need to be educated a little bit more about the the challenges that these platforms can bring. And not everything you read on there is the truth and there's a lot of misinformation, definitely. And I think there is a place for platforms within certain areas. So for example, our origin is, is to give organizations their own platform within that organizational context. And that's really powerful. And so you're culturing that, that whole sort of sense of purpose and being for that organizations, community and our engagement ratios demonstrate the power of that and how, how engaging those audiences then become. And we're seeing that with vocL now. We've probably had that live for what, nearly a year now, and we're going to be launching one with you as well. And I think again, because there's a real audience that you're you're building that's very purposeful and very I think people will want to be part of that for a certain reason. I think. So we can they can exist. I think it's not that safe space, though. And that's right. I think that's the reason we spoke about it and that's why vocL was created as well, is to allow people to have that, say, space to explore their thinking. And we don't have that on the social platforms. Yeah, now that's, that's what I like about, you know, what, what you're doing with these platforms, you know, what you've enabled vocL and what you will enable, you know, Comms Rebel to do, which is that they're a safe space and we encourage productive disagreement, which definitely I do work here. We have yeah and yeah. You know, and I think, you know, and I think that just makes it much more interesting and people are more happy to explore what we are finding though, aren't we. On, on, on vocL is people are still a bit hesitant, you know, because people, you know, people don't want to just put something out there that's not that thought through. You know, I might make a fool of myself sort of thing, you know. And actually, you know, I would love people to be more experimental. I mean, I don't know what. So how do we get people to be more. To the challenge? I think the challenge I think people have is that they it goes all goes back to inclusion and belonging. And when you are faced with some and you've got some really influential senior leaders in vocL, which is incredible, and I can imagine the anticipation or the worry that some of these people have in commenting because you're like, oh my God, I'm with this individual and they're representing you and they are sponsors. And if they're talking about in rooms where you don't have access, you want them to be able to serve. You believe that you're you need to be this incredibly polished version of leader so you can be represented in the way you want to be and I think that's a challenge. I think people just don't have the permission to be able to speak. Yeah. Yeah, that was that was really fascinating what you were talking about because, you know, sort of uncommon firstly when I write emails to to people with something that isn't as thought through as I want to, you know, I always make an effort to write, you know, please criticize this. You know, this is this is just me thinking aloud, you know, and I think, you know, and I think probably as as as leaders, we need to do more of that, don't we? You know, look, you know, I'm just throwing it out there. Please criticize me, you know, or else, you know, people sit there and sort of say, oh, you know, what, am I allowed to criticize this? You know, this might this might be super polished. Oh, well, like it depends. Will they get defensive? Oh, yeah. If that happens. And if you have experienced in your own career where you may have challenged a leader or you may have said something that you disagree with, and they've gone, who are you? And I've seen that happen in real life you know, I've seen it in organizations where a leader has been challenged and they've been shot down. That leader shot that person down. And then you can see the fear in that and then never hear that person speak up ever again. And not only that person, but that becomes cultural. Then no one has a voice. Yeah. No, I remember that. Actually, I was at a big leadership conference at Siemens and it was quite a long time ago. But you remember these moments and I was, you know, I was, you know, not super senior yet, probably my first general manager job. And and it was quite a difficult time. And results were weren’t where they, you know, the CEO of the time not going to mention any names, you know, sort of went up and. Right. So any questions from the audience, you know and then we, quiet at first and somebody put their hand up, you know, and he said, well, you know, and it was quite a challenging question. And the CEO said, you obviously have not been listening to anything that I have just been saying. You know, I mean, that is, you know, just a stupid question. You know, he maybe didn't quite say that, you know, so, you know, I hope that's clear. You know, any more questions? I think it was sort of, you know, nothing. I know what you just said, you know. And he said he's now seen and I know leaders will do it because they feel attacked and defensive and like, oh, my, like. And that's a reaction. It's such a reaction. And then if you don't have somebody in your team to feed that back to you and say, you know, yeah, and the way you answer that question, we need to kind of manage that next time because you frighten everybody and people need to be brave enough to say that to you because otherwise, if that's the reaction they've seen, you, they'll just carry on. And I bet you nobody did that with no CEO. You know, I bet you there wasn't, you know, and it should be, you know, the senior comms person should say, you know, they should look, you know, that that didn't encourage, you know, intrusion and questions earlier about the concept of having a not a not a CV. Yes. Is there any sort of tools or tricks you use to help people share their inner self a bit more within the organization? Yeah. And that's following. Yeah. And what you said, where it's really boring to hear people talk about their qualifications and experience. Nobody really wants to hear your last 25 years what you've done. And so there's there's a couple of things I think. I think, like I said, at Inner Rebel, we ask people to ask them one question how do you unleash Inner Rebel? But then I saw this other tool which I cannot take credit for, and hopefully in the show notes, it's a form that leaders are now asking is like a table, really, where you're asking your team to talk about their own personal things. So, you know, for example, it'll be like what your what your working hour is what you like doing as you might. Rather than going down five, you might go, You know what? I'm not very productive between the hours of eight & 11. So if you want me to be creative, it's best for you to email it, best to invite me to a creative meeting between one and three, or I like to go for a run at lunch time. So if you like to 20 meetings between 12 and one, I won't respond because I'm going for and that's really important to me and there's different like things like that within this form that you fill in and it's really powerful, you know, when you get to know your your team much more than you would if you were just having a general conversation. And in the world of hybrid, which is what we're in right now, even more critical that you get to know those folks who may be homeworkers more frequently, then come into the office and as leaders, and especially when it comes to inclusion and belonging, we do need to put ourselves out there more than we've ever have done. So, you know, we don't have the privilege anymore of overhearing conversation between team mates who may be struggling or somebody tapping you on the shoulder. Wallace uploads a kind of a quick word, and now people feel like you're intruding on someone's time if you're not in the same space. So you have a meeting in can now 20 minutes. So let's put our teams meeting in rather than be in a really kind of informal or while here while you're making a coffee, come have a quick chat. That doesn't happen now with this kind of name when you are going into the office, is that with a purpose about you meeting? Then to get stuff done is to go home. That's it. And the meetings and agenda, it's full minutes. Productions work. Yes. Not the subtle nuances, the personal conversations, you know. And you miss that and the people I've spoken to are missing the they're missing that connection. It was all quite an, you know, a nice environment, suppose to an extent when you were allowed to work from home more than frequently. But I'm seeing more and more people now going, you know, I'm a bit lonely. A bit lonely now. Definitely. I mean, we've seen a huge just looking at statistics. We've seen a huge increase in usage of our platforms over the last two years, like a huge increase, not just accounts before the old bit of homeworking or whatever else. It's just that that really heightened need to communicate with the fellow man. You know, kind of you don't have that person yet. You don't? Yeah. Yeah. Politics follows easy. Quite right. But so and I think the other thing is that, gosh, you've lost my thread. All right. Well, let me let me just because I think you were just going somewhere very interesting, which is, you know, can your engagement tools, platforms that you're building, can they become a space for that more informal communication? Because that's, you know, that, you know, can they become you know, can can on your platform to be the coffee machine, you know, and go to the coffee machine and have your coffee machine. Yeah. Those type of things that are happening. Absolutely. Because as you say, the productivity tools of business, the teams, the Zooms, they're not really there for that reason. They don't foster that personalized engagement opportunity. And I think I've got an interesting debate as well at the moment, which I think many business leaders have, which is the purpose of the office. Because I read a report a couple of weeks ago that the average number of time people are coming into the city center of Manchester, which is where we are now, is 1.5 days a week. Wow. Which is an I think the general consensus is that now that's the new normal, right? That's not really going to change. So the big question for me in my business and I think everyone else's is, well, then if everyone's only coming into the office for one or one and a half days a week, what is the purpose of the office and picking up on these sorts of requirements to get social engagement going? Yeah, and I've got a theory that we need to be bold enough to start throwing the desks out of the window and having environments more like where we sat now. Because this type of conversation, which is what people will get from coming to the office, not sat at a desk working great. And how do you make that work? You know, by the way, I totally agree with you. I think we should go as far as just ditching the word office. I agree. And I think I think. Office is dead. And we've now got a a collaboration space that, you know, you know, CoLab right there are I've just come up with a name, you know, we're now working in CoLabs. Collapsed. Yeah. You know, that was that's that where we are, you know. Now, having said that, you know, and I'm certainly guilty of that when I go to a colab, right? I'm not going to office. I'm going to the club. Now, you know, I'm a very I am a sort of a productivity person, you know. So I'm now going there and and I feel guilty, you know, to just go and have a cup of coffee, you know, because I've gone there to do something. So I've gone to have a meeting. But but how do we, you know, how do we create that culture? And, you know, and I remember at Siemens, you know, we create all these area with bean bags and that, you know, and then you what? Nobody ever used them, you know. But how do we. Because I think back then the culture wasn't like it is now. The landscapes changed, right? So I think you were right. You went to the office to be productive. It was like the factory, wasn't it? You all sat there doing emails for 12 hours in the day, right. And that's a classic office environment. But I think now that people are doing that in the comfort of their own home and then coming in for one day a week, they don't need to do that for that day. Week. Yeah, that's it. You know, so that's the whole mindset. It needs a completely it does. It completely. Needs it. Need someone to look like a government. Go back to that leading by example, you know. So if you go into the office and sit on teams all day, then it's not productive at all. You know, the people said, Well, I can sit on teams all day. It's pointless. Pointless. But it is around, you know, if you think I don't know if you've heard of the culture specialist Edgar Schein and he talks about, you know, symbolism, symbols, and then he talks about the values and then he talks about basic assumptions. And that's what basically makes a culture really simplified his thirty years of work. But you get the gist and it's the symbols that, you know are the kind of the first impression job of a culture and those bean bags and the ping pong table, all those things that may have been very beneficial in those days to show that you've got quite a fun, vibrant culture. If you're behaviors are not showing that it is, you know, your values and your behaviors are not demonstrate. You've got a fun culture, those bean bags and ping pong tables are just symbolisms that don't exist. You know, people can see. That. As an incentive because it works. So if you are actually in this CoLab space now, then you have to be intentional. You have to lead by example. So if you're a leader or you're a manager of a team, take the leap yourself and encourage people and do it and go and sit in a space like this and say, come over here, let's have a chat. So we get and give them permission to get off the computer. And this is how I've got too much going on. Go out and let's have a chat about what you got going on. Yeah, let's have a, you know, an opening. That two way conversation. I didn't understand. That. No. Not many people will That was the world of technology. And my watch just speaking to me. Are you seeing this is fascinating insight there because. You are brilliant. Course. Right at that moment as well. I didn't understand. I didn't understand it. Just to be clear. Are you saying that businesses are looking for this insight or are they just running blind to what's been in the past and not being innovative enough to embrace really new ways of kind of making people feel inclusive? Because I think the timing's perfect for it anyway. Right. Set aside the code thing. I think it's just helped some of the the changes happen quicker. Right. But really inclusive cultures. It touches on all of these areas, doesn't it? Yeah, it does. Yeah. And I think a lot of I think what's happening is that there's just lots going on and the so much noise and destruction and stress for businesses, you know, with all the energy crisis and the rates and people not being able to find people to even work in their organizations is so much pressure on leaders now to keep this business thriving that the forgetting, the stuff that can help the organization thrive and belong and be included because they're out here trying to fix this and down down there is to them not a priority. Now, we need to bring people into the into the business quickly and to bring that talent in and retain that talent. And we need to support that talent. And if you start talking about, oh, let's create this CoLab space, do this to them, it's like, what are you talking about now? I've got all this crazy thing going on here at the moment. It's really, really not where I need to be in my space. So what? You know, it's difficult to start those conversations, but they need to kind of go back to the basics, in my opinion, and be like, why are people not staying? Why are we not able to attract the talent that we need? And why have we got this kind of fear culture going on right now and really think about the behavior? So again, to the education thing, you've got the symbols which are great. You can create this, but then what the behaviors and the values that people are demonstrating. And no, I totally agree. Behaviors, values. And I think a lot of it is purpose as well, isn't it, you know, having that real purpose in your organization and that that purpose needs to be something that gets people out of bed in the morning. You know, this is you know, you know, I'm coming to do some programing and some coding, you know, to, to, to, to make Engage apps work better, you know, that's that's one thing. But actually, you know, I'm in the market of improving, you know, communications and, you know, creating better cultures in organization, you know, through that, you know, creating, you know, making sure people have more fun at work. You know, now you're into something which is, which is, which is more fun isn't it. Yeah. And it's much more inspirational for you want to be part of isn't it. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. The thing with fun though again it's really subjective isn’t it fun. So what I might think is fun and what you might think is very different thing. So I always say to folks again is you need to know your team, you know, you need to understand what they want and have those conversations. And bringing in a comedy act on Friday, I don't know if anyone else does this, but for example, maybe they do. Oh, actually, I have seen people do this on TV, you know, to bring like it now, everybody's gonna love it, you know? There was a laughter specialist who who I do, you know, and he's a great guy, but it's not my thing. And forcing people into forced fun can be uncomfortable. So again, it's those conversations about what is what do you need from me to help you thrive in this organization? What is missing for you? And how can I help support that? And let's have a conversation. Yeah, now I totally agree with you. And, you know, and we used to do a lot of that sort of forced fun. And I'm a bit of an extrovert and, you know, and I'd enjoy those sort of thing. But, you know, it dawned on me eventually that actually this doesn't embrace inclusivity at all because in your team, you know, you're bound to have, you know, whatever, you know, 30, 40% of people are introverts. And the last thing they want to do is to come into forced fun and, you know, and then they may be even, you know, suddenly asked, you know, to to to tell a joke or something, you know, I'll ask them. So, I mean, I'm with you. Yeah. Yeah. Those guys, it's not inclusive. No. And those icebreakers and stuff that we often have are not inclusive, you know. So the last question is like, what was the best holiday you've ever been on? Yeah. And people, you know, I've seen in rooms where people have never been away before to go away and then, you know, not to the blame of the facilitator they’re asking an icebreaker but the uncomfortableness in some people going I don't even have a passport I never been I've never been on holiday. I've never had the opportunity. So and it's just been very mindful of some of the questions that we may be asking. And the only way we can be mindful is if we get to know people and be curious about you. Yeah. That's why that you know, that form I was telling you about, if a facilitator handed that out at the start, they could use that as a bit of a getting to know each other. That's a really good idea it’s getting the mechanisms to capture those things and easily share them. So you then educated you know about it, isn't it? Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I remember talking to someone about the insights is the classic Myers-Briggs personality types thing and they actually used that with customers and they'd say that they would ask them to fill in a simple questionnaire so they could see whether they were red, green, blue. You know, those classic that people are familiar with? I think people most people are. Yeah. And then if they were someone that was a kind of green, blue that they loved the detail, if there were a kind of red yellow, they were strategic visionaries that didn't do details. If you engaged with them in that manner, they would they be more engaged with you then if you gave them a load of detail that you wouldn't read. So it's interesting how these how far you go because when you get into a company and you try and implement that at scale, it's really hard. Yeah, that's the thing. I think simply a bit intrusive as well. Right. You know, I mean, if you can do that within your team, but I think it has to be done in a, you know, a sort of a quiet, controlled environment that, you know, I mean, doing that with your customers is quite as ambitious. I mean, these are really team thing. I think there's you know, I have a problem with those personality tasks because I think they put labels in boxes. Yeah. And I think, you know, saying to somebody because I'm a red yellow because I've done hundreds of things, you know, she's very creative and can, you know, and can be a bit vibrant, you know, when she gets excited about certain things. And so don't give her the detail. But I know myself that there are certain things I want the detail for. You know, if I'm. Reading and. Certain things. Anything, I don't need to know. And, and I've been in organizations and in both of you will probably experience this is where people define each other by the colors. Oh they’re a red, they’re a blue green. I’m like theyre human beings! Yeah and they made you put those bricks on your table. Right. You know in the order of the colors that you are so red, green, yellow, blue, whatever orders that test told you. Yes, everybody had these bricks on their table. So when he went over to that person and you're like, oh, they’re a red here, better be careful, you kind of started to make this assumption and stereotype them based on their colors and that the world isn't complicated enough with all the stereotypes that you put out there. Then he got the color stuff in it and I'm like, Let's I understand the purpose sometimes to, you know, to see where the gaps are in knowledge or you might want to see if you've got a team that functions well. But I also believe you can do that through conversation and by getting to know your team, rather than getting to fill in these personality tests, which are often created by privileged people in certain positions who haven't had the insight to certain personalities and to just be mindful. I know loads of people may be listening, going, Oh, I've got just invested like 20 grand. In that program. Yeah, it works. But be mindful that you labeling people in that way is not always useful. It's probably been updated. Is very inclusive. Too. Yeah, I think they're the only. Thing that I'm thinking here is that is there a counter-narrative to this, which is if you going down this, whichever the mechanism, if it's a mind break or whether it's your sheet where you. Yeah. Tell me about your inner self. So I really get to know that you like certain type of food or certain type of music. And if in the scenario of a team event you might ask 50 people, we want to do something as a team, but if you ask them to divulge that level of detail, you'd never organize anything because you can't find any common ground because this person doesn't like music. Each person didn't like drinking, this person doesn't like going out, and you kind of go, We actually. Are you worse off then? Yeah. Is there a fear of doing nothing as a result of knowing all this information? I think you have to be very mindful that if you try and do everything for everybody, you'll do nothing for no one. That's it. And you have to be quite mindful. And it's not about trying. You know, inclusion has elements of exclusion and it's been okay with that at times. And I think we feel that and we think to ourselves, oh, we include absolutely every single human being in this thing and sometimes people don't like that and that's okay, but at least give them a choice. So choices are very important. So if there is a culture of wanting to go, you know, at the moment I've been having conversations about going for a drink after work. Yeah. And there's a lot of people now more than ever that don't drink or are uncomfortable around drinking and whatever. And I've seen this kind of debate between, well, I'd like to go to the pub and have a drink and then I don't. So what do we do with them? Like give them a choice. Yeah, like, go for a dinner, and then if anybody wants to have a drink afterwards, come. Yeah, I'll go bowling or do something like that way. Doesn't involve drinking because not only for religious reasons people don't drink because of. Yeah, well the. Health. It can be triggering and also so yeah a very practical example but give people options and say, you know what, we want to do a team event, we're going to go bowling or we're going to go and do a bit of a team activity. Let's do a vote, majority wins. You know, that's just the world that we live in. And if you want to come along, come. If not, we're going to go for a drink afterwards and join us then. But we we are fearful at times of giving people choices or we don't even think about when you think of a choice. And then we get upset when people say, I don't want to do that. I'm not part of and I don't feel I belong now because I don't really considered what I want. But, you know, you just have to be if you know your team and you get to know your team and you've built this trust with them, they will know your heart is in the right place by doing the things that you doing and next time you might those two, if you make a mistake, own it, acknowledge it, take accountability and do it differently next time. Yeah. So a bit like Liz, is that a right segway. Which Liz. The Liz. Liz the only one now. Owning the mistake of saying and redoing everything? But no, I think that's really important and I think that's really good advice as well. Like genuinely really good advice and that give, as you say, you're never going to please everybody. But if your intentions right and open and transparent, then I think people will get the fact that you are getting that little bit an extra moment to make people feel inclusive. And that's important. And people will I mean, not to get political into that either. You turn on the IP taxing but they got to for that as well and yeah that it make the right decision but they got that and you know I've been I've heard you and I get it and I want to champion like you get it. You want to get in the first place. Like to your point about the start, the conversation, if you're not got the cognitive digest tunes done, the challenges, which is where the issues are so no one around that table said or is that the right thing you doing? If even if you did think that they didn't say it, but they still got attacked for it. And that's why people get scared. And I often think that, you know, I think U-turns like that should be celebrated because they are. They’ve listened. To listening. It's an admission that I got it wrong, you know, and I think that should be celebrated. So I think, you know, I mean, but now we're into a totally different ball game, which is our media and, you know, our media in helping. We're supposed to communicate that, you know, because they create that fear factor, don't they? You know. It sounds like. Yeah, sounds. It doesn't. And I think you're right, what you touched on earlier in the sense that the business community could do so much more to kind of level off a lot of that fear mongering that the media love so much. Because, like you say, it does sell papers. Yeah, they do. And the media has always been like, you know, if you look at the Edelman trust barometer, which they've been doing for the last 20 years, media has never the media alongside the government has never been of the trust. They've always been down because they are very much about selling papers. And what sells papers is fear. You know, the nice stories are nice to read, but no one's going to buy them. Now. Want to read about the crisis? Is that going on in the world? And again, with the social media side of things, we hear more than we've ever heard before. You know, humans are not meant to live in a continuous state of stress. And right now, with all the access we've got to all this information, it's great to be knowledgeable, but we are in a continuous state of stress, stress, all the time and it's not healthy and we need to edit our choices and what we are doing and what we're hearing. And I think sometimes that's maybe too the question earlier on. Yeah, going about should leaders contribute then to make a decision, why do I need to contribute and what value to bring in and how do I reassure my people and my team and our customers that we're doing right by them. Yeah, yeah. So, so on that, you know, we used to question to both of you and because, you know, I think this will be really helpful for our vocL future voices because they live in that constant state of stress. And actually, you know, many of them that, you know, they became into senior leadership positions, you know, three or four years ago. All they've known is this uber stressful environment. You manage your way through COVID, you know, then manage your way through the, the, the, the energy and cost of living and crisis, you know, now managing your way through what is, you know, going to be a recession of forms, you know, so so in that environment, what advice do you give to the future voices in terms of them, you know, having an impact with their voice on society? What's the advice you give to them? I think my my biggest advice to them is recognizing what what do you do to like I said to you before, what is it that they need to contribute to the conversation in the business that they're in? And there'll be things that you just don't need to get involved in. It's not it doesn’t align with your industry, which is fine. And it's also allowing yourself or giving yourself permission just to step back a little bit, reflect, understand, learn and say, you know what, I don't know about this as much as I'd like to know so I can have a conversation as much as I'd like to have this conversation, because I need to go and learn more about this. I'm not going to comment about this right now. There's other experts and specialist in this in this community, in this organization that can comment. But for me, I need to go and learn a little bit more. But we're not vulnerable enough to say that. And it's also okay to say, I don't know. Yeah, you know, I don't know. And I'll go and find out. And to be honest, I don't think I need to know either, because it's other people who are experts in that space. I know everything you can do. You can't you can't do everything. And you see and that's a bit of a privilege that we do have as business people. You know, if you're a politician, it's very difficult to say, I don't know, the media's going to crucify you. You know, where is is a business person. And so we look at these people, oh, I can't say that, you know, but as businesspeople, you can sit and say, look, I really I really don't know, you know, but I'm going to think about it. I don't want to blab some nonsense now. And so I think that's great and great advice. Yeah, I'd feel so sorry, you know, just because. I but even as a politician, you know, I think there would more trust in politicians if there were a bit more honest and said. I know. I need to, you know, this is the area that I look after education, health, whatever. Yeah. And they should know about the area that looking after. But if they're being asked to comment around the Health Secretary's new policies and you're in education, I think it's okay to say, yeah, you know what, this is their world. And they will give you the answer. But I don't know enough about that space because I'm focusing on that. But the don't there seem to kind of fumble their way through an answer, make a mistake and a crisis hits generally? Well, the problem we have is that the health sector doesn't know anything about health, but that's another story. So, yeah, same question. Do you feel, you know, what advice would you give to our local future voices in this crazy, difficult, stressful environment? Well, I think the clues in the name, really, I think that we've all talked about just come to the table with an authentic voice and don't worry too much about being shot down, because part of it is just share your views. And I think what you've created is an environment where they can do that and in a way that's their environment to to to try and experiment and in a safe way. It's not going to go on Twitter. Yeah. Yeah. And as you said before, when you used to go on Twitter, you used to get good with 60% negativity, wasn't it. Yeah, which is just shocking when you think about those stressful environments. And I'll be honest, I kind of look at that and think because I don't really do Twitter and that's part of the reason I just think I don't need that extra stress. I've got I've got enough stress in my life without having that, but I get it for different roles. That's, that's fine. That's different. But I think it's just that we have to be more authentic, more, more ourself, be comfortable with that. If we don't know something, then fine, we can't be expected to know everything. And I think that when you do look at the TV and you see these the sort of politicians and the like, they are expected to, and they're always waffling around the army and usually coming away quite badly from it. But and I think actually you seeing the media are definitely turned up the dial in terms of the ruthless questioning now haven't they. Yeah, the interview every interview is looking for the killer interview all the time. Yeah. And that's creating quite a toxic culture for people to express themselves more openly and honestly. Because if they if the interviewer can make them look stupid, they will. And it's also being aware that you've got a safe space. So, you know, to the vocL point, those they've got a great opportunity to be part of a community. But even if you don't belong to Oklahoma, anything like that, find your safe space. So if you do go for a very hard hitting interview, for example, you've got a people around you who can lift you back up and give you the support that you need and you will go back out and do it again. And I think it test you in a way as well, and you shouldn't fear it. You know, I know the interviews are taken place recently and to put the fear in everybody like I don't want to go on local radio station because they you know, you're right, that can be a little bit difficult, but very difficult. And it's I mean, fair questions are asking and they're a valid to an extent. But it is scary when you're putting your voice up there. So it is a safe way. Yeah, I agree. Find you safe space. And if we're seeing this all the time in the media, then in business people are going to be more like your old CEO may be where they think, right. You know, I want to make you feel a bit stupid. You should ask that question, you know. So I think we've all got to to take heed to that. Yeah. So I think, I think we should wrap up there because we could literally talk all day. Such a privilege to spend time with both of you. You've got so much expertise to bring to this debate. So it's been fantastic and thank you so much for your time. I'd just like to add as well that we're engaged. We're really proud and privileged to be part of the vocL journey and really continuing. That is exciting to be part of that. And the same with your journey with Comms Rebel. I love creating if we can help create the inner rebel in everybody, that would be a real achievement, and I think that would help businesses all over the place. So I think with that, with that sort of we can wrap up and it's been fun to. It is about and you say thank you as well so what a great conversation we've had. And I tell you my brain is buzzing and I've got you know, we've got inner rebels comms rebel created CoLabs we've got. A of disagreement. Productive disagreement. You know, I think, you know, the really interesting discussion we've had, I think, is, you know, the real importance of proper diversity, of thought in in any communication, but also in any sort of, you know, team and environment. There's just so much to go away and think about here. Thanks very much. Thank you. It's been absolutely fascinating to hear. I was privileged to be with both of you and hear your expertise because as a communications professional, I love it. I love understanding your points of views and leaders and what is holding those barriers and blockers. And obviously the listeners who are listening to this podcast, watching any questions, you know, my LinkedIn is always open, so accessible questions, thoughts, opinions. You know, I love conversation and we need to have more of these types of chats. So thank you so much, Phil, for inviting me to be part of the conversation. Juergen. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for listening. To Engaged in Conversation. It was presented by our CEO Phil Wedgwood. For more news and updates on Engage, visit our website. www.engagesolutionsgroup.com